0:00

Hi, I'm Michele Mateus, and welcome to Noticing the Ordinary. This podcast is all about solo musings and honest conversations where we share about the things we so often miss in life. There's no homework, and there's no adding to your to-do list. Honestly, I'm just here to share some good company and something worth noticing. But a note before we dive in. I share openly and honestly here, and I'm not a therapist or a doctor. So if you're moving through something that you need some support with, I encourage you to reach out for professional help. And if you don't know where to turn to, I got you. I've listed some resources on my podcast homepage, so you can go check those out. All right. Now, let's get down to noticing something.

Michele 0:44

Hi, everybody. I'm here today with my, little friend Cupcake over here, and my other friend Ryan. I don't know if you notice Cupcake back there, Ryan.

Ryan 0:53

I just did now. It's very cute.

Michele 0:56

She's like my little mascot. We're very on brand. You know how they say, like, owners look like their pets? And we're very gray together., Everyone, excited to welcome Ryan today, and I shared on Instagram a funny little story about how Ryan and I connected, and it was through a mutual person that I connected with on Instagram. And as it turns out, I used to shoot weddings with Ryan's wife many moons ago. So, um, Vancouver is so small, isn't it? Welcome here today, Ryan, to Noticing the Ordinary. I am gonna read your bio because I could never memorize anything to save my life. So if you see me looking away, that's why. Ryan is a registered clinical counselor and the founder of Layers Counseling and Wellness. He also teaches counseling at Alder University, where he is passionate about mentoring and supporting the next generation of counselors, which is so amazing. We need great mentors in this world. Ryan's clinical interests include psychedelic integration and ketamine-assisted psychotherapy, which I would love to learn more about in another episode., As well as exploring the intersections of oppressive systems, mental health, and social justice. His approach to therapy is informed by a commitment to understanding the broader social systemic context that shape people's mental health and wellbeing. Ryan enjoys reading and collecting books, watching movies, and spending time with his Pomchi, Dolly. How cute is that? He's excited for the opportunity to be part of Noticing the Ordinary because of its approach and what it offers. Its non-prescriptive reminder to get curious and slowing down. Wow, you just, like, wrote a whole new thing for me and the show. Thanks. Which is something everyone needs, Ryan says, so I agree. Welcome here today with me, Ryan. I have a first question for you is, are you someone that tends to go about your day noticing all the things?

Ryan 2:52

Oh, good question. Yeah. I mean, I think noticing is something I wanna be doing more, definitely.

Michele 2:58

Hum?

Ryan 2:58

I think I'm someone that can very easily not notice things, and so that's why I really liked this podcast and this idea that you have, and have been kinda thinking about it, um, because w- we need to be noticing more. I think, you know, our world kinda moves at a particular pace, and I'm You know, the stuff that I do, I get pretty stressed, and I've got a lot on my plate. So, uh, really, yeah, I, I think, I think just need, generally just needed to be noticing things more,

Michele 3:24

Okay.

Ryan 3:25

life

Michele 3:26

What does that, like, when you think about needing to be noticing things, like, what are you thinking about? It's like, "Ah, damn, I missed out on..." Like, for example, my son, of his generation, and he's also neurodivergent, he's always locked into a screen everywhere we go. And I'm like, "Hey, Maxwell, like, check that thing out," like, if we're in the car. And he's like, "What? What?" You know? Because he misses all the cool things 'cause he's so locked in, and I think that happens to us a lot

Ryan 3:54

Yeah, yeah. You know, it, it, we talk a lot about this idea of, like, an at- attention economy, right? Like, there's a lot of stuff is designed to really grab our attention and, and, and keep our attention, and that's something we're often kind of pushing up against and something that we're kind of often kind of fighting against, is something like that. And, and so for me, kinda noticing is, is in a way, Well, it's, it's very mindful I think as well to be noticing something. it's also not, you know, really being distracted or having our attention pulled. There's a lot I think with noticing, I'm gonna start talking about what noticing means to me.

Michele 4:30

Yeah, I love it. I love it. I, you j- you just go. Yeah. I'm loving it

Ryan 4:35

just gonna kinda go with it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, to me there's a sort of like, intentionality behind noticing, and I think that's a really important, distinction because we can be focused on things and stuff can grab our attention, and there isn't a lot of, control or intentionality behind that. You know, I think if you notice when you're, through social media or something, stuff is grabbing your attention and, and sometimes we even have a hard time pulling ourselves away from, from that, from screens.

Michele 4:59

I can agree

Ryan 5:00

sort of intentionality. Yeah. Yeah. Back online and, um So I think, I think noticing is reintroducing that intentionality. I am observing something and noticing what is coming up, whatever it is. You know, there's a, there's a kind of like a stepping back, not being kind of caught up in a, in a stream of, of constantly being pulled or pushed, or, or distracted by something, but really kind of taking a moment, to notice, you know, whatever is coming up. So there's a lot I think of intentionality behind it., It's, you know I kinda see it as pretty synonymous with, with mindfulness or sort of like a mindful approach to something 'cause that is that sort of intentionality, that curiosity, that non-judgmental, piece that comes into, to it as well. So I see a lot of overlap between the, the two concepts of mindfulness and noticing.

Michele 5:45

Mm-hmm. My mind is also going a mile a minute listening to you, which is very common for me. I'm neurodivergent, I'm autistic, and I'm ADHD. And, I keep thinking as you're talking, I'm like, "Okay, so I'm a person that notices all the things all the time," but more from a... I'm not necessarily in a mindful state, you know? Or maybe I am. I don't know. But I'm always like, "Ooh, squirrel, squirrel," like all the things. Before we had a child when we would travel, uh, I always had my camera. And I don't know if your wife is like this, but I tend to be the person that's walking out into traffic because I noticed something that I wanna photograph, and my husband would be like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, you didn't even look." You know, I'm like that kid that's just like, running across the street. And so, yeah, it's very interesting about the intentionality piece. I find that for myself, and I think that's one of the reasons why I wanted to start this podcast is to, to explore, the different types of noticing that we do. For me, sometimes it is a distraction or daydreaming, and for sometimes it's very intentional or it goes deeper. Like, if I am in my garden and I see something, I'll pause there for a minute and stay with it, and then I start noticing even more, which becomes more intentional in that pause

Ryan 7:07

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it's interesting 'cause like you said, it's, it's different types of noticing as well.

Michele 7:12

Uhum.

Ryan 7:12

of describing it a particular way, and then you've kind of got your own particular way of, of, of what that comes up for you. But, but what I, what I'm starting to kind of piece together there is, is maybe it's about the feeling that comes with it,

Michele 7:24

Hum

Ryan 7:24

right? Like, if, if you're feeling really distracted by different things, like, is that energizing for you? Are you exercising, you know, some, you know, d- does it feel like you're exercising curiosity? Does, does it... You know, how do you feel after? Because I

Michele 7:37

Hum!

Ryan 7:37

that's an important distinction, too, with the different types of noticing because, you know, for me, you know, being distracted, kind of way that I'm describing, maybe push and pulled by, by screens or, or, different things that are designed to, to kind of grab our attention and, and, and not let go, there's a feeling after that you feel kind of drained. Like, you don't feel too great after,

Michele 7:56

Yeah

Ryan 7:56

it's, it's... Whereas I think when you're... What you're talking about here is really interesting. It's like you're, you're... technically you're distracted by things, but there's a... I, I think the feeling is different. Like, just the way that you're describing it, it sounds like it's very, like, energizing for you and, and something that really feels aligned with, with kind of who you are as well.

Michele 8:14

Yeah. Yeah, this is so interesting. I already love where this is going, and now I'm thinking about the feeling. So I, for example, one of my favorite things to do is take myself on an artist date. So I will just maybe grab my camera, maybe not, and I will go somewhere,, that I enjoy going by myself, which is the really important piece, right? Because I am a mom to a high support needs kiddo, and I am home a lot with him, and it can be very taxing on my nervous system. And so I love to intentionally go for a walk, often in the same areas, that I know because I know I want to stop and eat at my favorite place and go to my favorite record shop, and that brings me so much joy. And I tend to notice all of the things as I'm walking through like, "Oh, look at these stickers on, the telephone poles or the light and how it's hitting this particular concrete that day." And it-- so it is very intentional. Like, I haven't gone looking for something, but I've gone looking to just be by myself and be in a state of wonder intentionally

Ryan 9:23

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I think that's really im- important, you know, that, really kind of just sort of like, you know, beginning a mindfulness walk with that intentionality, but then just allowing whatever grabs your attention to grab your attention. To just kind of just sort of like free float your attention and kind of let it go wherever, wherever it wants to go, and then, and then really noticing when it, when it does go to, to a particular, uh, a particular place.

Michele 9:45

Yeah

Ryan 9:46

And, yeah, and, and I think, like, this time of year as well is so great for that. Like, fall,

Michele 9:51

I know

Ryan 9:52

leaves on the ground. Like, I just feel like, you know, there's so much more to notice, and if you do go for a walk, there's so much to kind of just... If you just let your attention kind of roam, and kind of take a step back, there's a lot to take in, in terms of sort of the beauty of just, like, the changing color of the leaves, new stuff on the ground. I love mushrooms. Bunch of mushrooms popping up these days. That's always a fun thing to

Michele 10:13

Yeah, that's fun

Ryan 10:14

there's that, like, there's that one mushroom that's kind of got the, the, the bright red color with

Michele 10:20

okay. Yeah. Okay. I never see those for real, but you're seeing those around? That's, like, so fun

Ryan 10:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're popping up all over the place. Like the- well, in the neighborhood that I live in, there's, there's a bunch of those. So it's really great, like all of a sudden, uh, lots of different things to sort of notice when you, when you just sort of let your attention kind of wander. And, and I think, I think you start to notice things like that. Like maybe there are those mushrooms kind of you know, in, in, in your neighborhood, but it just takes us a moment to kind of, again, to, to try to, try to notice what's going on and, and not have a particular kind of focus for where we're looking or how we're looking or the, the walk that we're taking, but just noticing what comes up, get these little, little surprises sometimes. And then of course it helps if you're really into mushrooms and you're kind of looking for that sort of stuff too.

Michele 11:02

Well, it's, you know, it's also making me think about, the sensory experiences, and I think we don't talk about that nearly enough. And I learned more about that, you know, when my son was going through his diagnosis and how all humans have a sensory profile. It's like, why don't we learn about this when we're younger? All of us. It would be so empowering to know. And when you were talking about the fall, I'm like, the other day I was walking, there was crunching sounds with all the leaves. It's a whole different sensory experience. And so me being who I am, just started to walk back and forth on a pile of leaves because I was so fascinated by the different sounds it was making. I think everyone should try that

Ryan 11:47

Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, t- yeah, really indulge and, and, and, and take it all in. That's, that's fantastic, yeah

Michele 11:53

Yeah. So maybe you're gonna go for a walk later with your dog and crunch some leaves and look for some mushrooms

Ryan 11:59

I'm definitely gonna be noticing it now. Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah, yeah.

Michele 12:03

And so when thinking about coming on here and wanting to share something that you have been noticing more lately, what is that thing?

Ryan 12:13

Yeah, for me, I mean, we're, we're already kind of getting into it, I think. You know, I really wanted to mention, just the change of the seasons, the different things, you know that I'm noticing there. I'm noticing a lot these days in terms of, well, behind me here is a brand-new office. I just moved into it, so I'm noticing tons of different things with this new space. the temperature of the room, the airflow, noticing the lighting, noticing kinda how you, how I feel in the space as I kinda get set up and, and acclimatized to it, and that's, that's very important, I think, also for, the therapy side of it, to really be, you know, noticing how the space, how people are, are kind of, interacting with it. You know, what are they feeling when they're sitting in the room? How is the lighting affecting our mood? And, and, you know, is this u- under-stimulating, over-stimulating? So I'm really, I think right now, really tuned into the kind of the physical space around me because it has such an impact on us. For example, this office has these really terrible overhead fluorescent lights

Michele 13:11

I love those

Ryan 13:14

And immediately as soon as I stepped in, I was like, "Nope, these are coming off. We're bringing in these nice warm lamps. We're getting it all set up." 'Cause that, yeah, you're, you know, you're right. Like we all have kind of a sensory profile. This stuff, you know, does, has a, has a big influence on us, but it's also very unique how we respond to it as well. So I'm really trying to like attune to the kinda space so that I can, really be aware of, of, of the different kind of profiles that there are and how it might be impacting impacting people, in a session when I'm working with them, when they're coming in. You know, is it an environment that feels safe? Do I feel comfortable in it as well? I mean, I think that's a big, uh, a, a big influence, you know, a- as I'm working in this space. Am I feeling comfortable? Is my nervous system regulated? we, there's this co-regulation that happens with each other. You know, if I'm calm, you're calm. If I start to get a little bit of stress, you're gonna pick up on that, and it's kinda, kinda go back and forth. So can I create an environment where I'm also feeling really comfortable and really like the space and, and then kinda use that in a session with the client to kinda help co-regulate and making sure that they're, they're feeling comfortable? So a ton of stuff in the office space itself, noticing a lot of gratitude as well. Setting this, this office up and, You know, setting up layers, has been quite a team effort, and so there's been a lot of help involved, and I think lately I've just been really, really connecting with the gratitude piece to it as well. Like, you-- sometimes when you go into a business, you think, "Okay, it's my business. I have to do everything. I, I feel weird about asking for help. Can I ask for help? What comes up when I ask for help?" And so lately I've just been like, you know what? I really gotta just connect with the gratitude piece of it. Like, if someone is willing to, to help and, and, and offer that, that's a real gift, and I really wanna kinda connect with that and not bring all my stuff kinda coming up about, about guilt and do I need to be doing everything? And maybe that's sort of the, the productivity, capitalism kinda piece kinda coming in. You know, do I have to like earn it? And what does that look like? So yeah, really connecting with a lot of, a lot of gratitude as well.

Michele 15:13

That's amazing, and thank you for being so intentional and putting so much care into what you're setting up in your practice, and it's music to my neurodivergent ears and advocate for neurodivergent children because it's something that we're not often talking about or thinking about and, and often these little things that we notice are really easy little shifts that we can make to support more humans to feel safe in spaces. You know, I haven't really... That whole concept of a safe space really pisses me off because, because I don't even know what that means. Safe for who? And on whose terms? And what does that... You know. And I d- I don't think we're thinking about that enough, although people are using that term all the time, and as someone who's learned so much about the neurodivergent experience, it's definitely made me think about that term in a very different way. So I really appreciate when I hear that people are being so intentional with space design. I think it's, it's really, really important, so thank you for that. Thank you for that.

Ryan 16:19

And, and I really connect with just what you were saying there about, like, this idea of a safe space. And, and I think when you have Sandy on the podcast as well, she'll have some very, very insightful things to, to say about creating, like, a safe space. Because yeah, there-- I think, you know, there, there's such emphasis on we need to create, create a safe space, but what, what does that look like? And so there's a lot of lip service. There's a lot of people saying, "Well, this is a safe space." And it's like, well, you, you-- safety is not something that you just say it's there. It's something you have to kind of, you know, kind of create with somebody. And so that's a-- that requires, you know, a little bit of a dialogue, a little bit of you checking in with someone, and it's, and it's gonna be different for everyone. So I think safety is really kind of like an ongoing kind of process that you kind of co-create with someone. And also knowing, I think what's really, really important, nothing can be 100% safe, and that's actually, something that's really important to think about,

Michele 17:08

I agree

Ryan 17:09

kind of sit with, you know, the world, unfortunately, is not 100% safe, and we need to be able to, respond to that and be able to kind of talk about that in-- when, when, you know, I'm kind of... Again, I'm gonna talk a lot about kind of the, the therapy context, 'cause that's just what's on, on my mind right now. But, you know, in, in the therapy context, you know, if you're, if you're not feeling safe, being able to kind of talk about that and be able to sit through that and, and, and tolerate or acknowledge, you know, that sort of piece as well. Because I think sometimes we, we can kind of create, like, a little bit of a, pitfall when it comes to safety in thinking that everything has to be, has to be safe all the time for us. It puts a lot of, then a lot of pressure on ourselves if we're telling ourselves, "I need to be safe all the time." It's a much different than t-to say, "Well, I can only do so much to create safety, and then some-sometimes I might feel unsafe, and, and that's okay, too." Right? And then with a counselor, sometimes, counselors, really, try to strive for 100% safety when that's not the case either. And then all of a sudden, the, the focus of the work goes on creating this sort of abstract concept of, of safety, striving for this safety that we can never really reach. And all of the energy goes into that, and we start to miss things. We start to miss wonderful moments where we can learn from, from feeling unsafe or share with our therapist, "Hey, I, I'm not feeling safe right now. Let's, let's kind of talk about that and kind of unpack it."

Michele 18:34

I love all of this, and this is totally not on the list of thoughts that we were gonna explore, but I love this because I think that, you know, I, I, I'm a photographer, and I, I hear that term being thrown around so much, right? "I create a safe space in my studio." And I'm like, what does that even mean?

Ryan 18:50

uhum

Michele 18:51

I like to reframe it, and a friend told me this, and I cannot remember who is the originator of this phrase, but a brave space. Like, how can we enter a space that can be... allow us to be brave, which also means saying, "Hey, I'm not feeling that safe right now." Um, so I'll have to dig that out because there's articles on that, on brave spaces, and I find it really... it's a really interesting shift into, these, these spaces that we enter and that we try and cultivate and create that we wanna invite people in, right? To have a therapy session. And honestly, sometimes a photo shoot is exactly like a therapy session,

Ryan 19:30

No, totally. It's a, it's a very vulnerable, kind of place to be in. And, and I, I see it through, through, you know, my wife Cat doing her work, you know, when, when she's, when she's doing photography, creating that safety as well, with her work, 'cause that's so important because again, like yeah, I mean, you want, you want someone to, to feel like themselves. And, and then I, I know your, your, your photography, you know, from, from what I've seen, it's very like trying to really bring forth like the individual, like really let them feel,

Michele 19:57

Uhum.

Ryan 19:57

to express themselves, and I think that comes from a photographer that really makes you feel safe.

Michele 20:02

Oh, thanks. I appreciate it. I wanna explore this concept of boredom because you shared that that's a topic that you're, you're interested in. So I'd love to hear a little bit about that and what you think about boredom, and yeah. What... Let's, let's explore that 'cause I think it's a very fascinating topic

Ryan 20:22

Yeah, definitely. This is a very interesting topic, and I can, I can say a lot of different things about this. And I know we've already kinda touched on so many different topics. We can go in so many different directions. So also let me know if I'm

Michele 20:32

Yeah.

Ryan 20:33

off from

Michele 20:33

No, that's okay. No, it's great

Ryan 20:36

yeah, so yeah, I can talk a little bit about, about boredom. Boredom's really interesting to me, and, and I think it ties into a lot of what we've been talking about with noticing. And actually, now that I think about it, it kinda ties into the safety piece, right? Um, because, you know, f- boredom, for me is, is really something that, it, it, it's, it's for a lot of people a negative state to be in. Like, it's a neg-- we wanna get rid of boredom. As soon as we're in it, it's like, "This doesn't feel great. I wanna get out of this. How do I do something different?" there's lots of things at our disposal to eliminate that feeling of boredom. We're, we're too good, I think, at, at eliminating boredom. so I think there's something really valuable in being able to, notice when we're feeling bored or, or notice the environment we're in when we're feeling boredom. And being able to sit with it, I think, is really important, and that's a bit of a skill that I think we're losing. And I, and I see that having a direct impact on a lot of our, mental wellness, is losing that ability to be bored. And it's kind of like a paradoxical thing where it's like, well, if I'm, if I'm getting rid of a negative feeling, shouldn't I be feeling better, right? And, and I think there's a lot of value in actually kind of approaching it differently no, we need to sit through, the boredom, boredom is a very important, feature of our, of our consciousness, of our mental wellness. Boredom is a place where really the mind can actually finally rest, you know, and not be pushed and pulled by different things in our day. And then from that rest, I find a lot of really interesting things, come from that.

Michele 22:02

Uhum.

Ryan 22:03

need to be really mindful. It takes a lot of mindfulness to, to be able to get into that space, and where do we go from there, right?

Michele 22:10

How would you define boredom?

Ryan 22:12

Oh, yeah. Um, boredom is, is really, know, not having your mind grabbed by anything,

Michele 22:19

Ok

Ryan 22:20

Having no distraction and, and really nothing to do. And then, and then it, it also is accompanied with that sort of like negative feeling, like I wanna kinda... I wanna get rid of this feeling. This doesn't feel great. So there is sort of like a feeling that kinda comes with it as well. so really it's just whenever we don't, we're, we're not being pushed or pulled by something, we don't have a distraction going on, and we can just finally kinda let our, our minds kinda wander a little bit, and that, and that's kind of uncomfortable in the same way that, you know, for example, if you try to go for a walk, and you say, "You know what? I'm not gonna have a destination. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna wander." That's like really difficult, I think, for, for a lot of people. There needs to be a goal. We need to be like, "Well, I'll walk to the grocery store, and I'll pick up some groceries, and that'll be my walk," or I run an errand. So that same feeling of like can I go for a walk with no destination in mind, with no goal and just kinda see where, where things go and not be distracted by anything, that's kinda similar to, to this, this feeling of boredom. Can I just sort of let my mind wander in the same sorta way? And, and it's a really difficult space for a lot of people. When we, when we... when you go for a walk, you wanna put in headphones. You wanna listen to, to a podcast. You wanna listen to some music. You need that sort of like... I, I... it's difficult for a lot of us to be finally like alone with, with ourselves, and I think that's what boredom is, is really just being alone with yourself and really just kind of connecting and, and not have anything kinda mediating that, that connection.

Michele 23:46

Well, that sounds like bliss to me though.

Ryan 23:49

Uh-huh.

Michele 23:53

too, like, about boredom and the discomfort that comes with it. And I wonder, of course, my brain instantly goes to late stage capitalism, when we, we feel like we're always supposed to be being productive. You know, when you're talking about, "Well, if I'm gonna go for a walk, I'm gonna go to the store, and I'm gonna pick this thing up, or I'm gonna do this thing, and then I'm gonna come back," and it's, like, completed the circle of, like, productivity. You know? That we ha- we have been so brainwashed to think that that's what, how our lives should function, right? Like, we should always be productive and doing a thing. But boredom is like, "Hmm-

Ryan 24:37

Mm-hmm.

Michele 24:38

And yeah, it's so,

Ryan 24:39

no... Yeah

Michele 24:40

so curious how that's, uh, why... Yeah, I'd love to explore a little bit more, like why is that so uncomfortable for people?

Ryan 24:49

Yeah, yeah. I, I, I think, I think for many different reasons that the capitalism piece you kind of mentioned kind of ties in. We just don't have practice a lot of experience. So, so something that's unfamiliar is, is usually treated with. you know, when we're feeling stressed out, when we're feeling low, when we feel kind of overwhelmed, we don't wanna do things that are unfamiliar. And so for a lot of us, we seek familiarity, and so being distracted is very familiar. And so I think that's, that's one aspect of it, why boredom is uncomfortable, is just the fact that it's an unfamiliar space to be in. We, we often aren't bored, and that's why I think we need to kind of push past some of that. In the same way that I think also another piece to it is just thinking about kind of capitalism as well. You can't really commodify, boredom. You know, it's not... You know, boredom i- suggests a state in which you're actually not consuming anything. You're not producing. You're not buying. You're not selling. You're just bored. You're with yourself. It's like, you know, you know, meditation a lot of the times. You know, we can, you know, commodify meditation. But really at the heart of it, you can't really commodify that. Kind of what you said there, that when I'm connected with myself and I'm feeling that bliss, you know, that's not something you can kind of like bottle and sell to someone. It's something we all have. And so the system we live in is kind of always trying to tell us that, "Oh, no, in order for you to have that bliss, you need to buy this thing," or, "Maybe you don't have enough of this thing," right?

Michele 26:12

Uhum.

Ryan 26:13

The s- the system's never gonna tell you, "Oh, actually, you have everything you need to be happy." You know? Like, that's not very

Michele 26:18

Well, exactly, right? I mean, even, like, when you said you can't commodify boredom, I'm like, exactly, because you can buy this coloring book, and you can get you know, you c- there are so many things that you can get. You know, maybe it's, I don't know. I love actually doing word searches, but you know, the- there's all these things. There's these things that are... Well, you... The cure to boredom, I, I feel like I've heard that term before too. The cure to boredom is this, I don't know what it is, some sort of thing, right? There's always like... But why do we need to cure boredom?

Ryan 26:51

Yes,

Michele 26:52

So people are trying to commodify it. They're like, "Ooh, people are bored. They are uncomfortable." And so there's, like, this whole capitalist agenda around it

Ryan 27:03

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, we really need to be able to, you know, become bored as well, um, you know, I, I think to, to, to connect with ourselves too, right?

Michele 27:16

yeah

Ryan 27:17

you know, like you can't, you know, for example, I need to be bored sometimes to be able to ask myself a question of what is it that I need right now? I can't ask that question, what is it that I need right now, if I'm being distracted by things or if I'm, if I'm not allowing my kind of, attention to wander, right? so we really, I think, kind of block a relationship with ourselves if we're constantly busy and doing things. And when we're bored, we can finally kind of sit down and go, "Okay, what's going on with me? Let me check in with me. What is it that I wanna do? What's going on?" And then kind of finally engaging in that process is really uncomfortable at first, but then it leads to that, to an answer to that question. Then you can actually understand, okay, this is what I do need right now. I, I, I need to cry, or I need to have some, some time alone, or I need to reach out to a friend. It's sometimes hard to access that space of knowing what I need un-unless I am bored and kinda, kinda connect with myself., And so you can go in that direction with it, and you can also go this other interesting direction too, where I, where I feel boredom is also, sort of a foundation of, of, of creativity.

Michele 28:20

Uhum!

Ryan 28:20

A lot of creative ideas come from when we're feeling really bored. I don't know if you've ever had the experience where, you were just kind of bored one day, and then you kinda picked up a new hobby, or you picked up a new, art modality, and, and you really got into it because you needed to have been bored first or, or maybe had a really interesting idea kinda pop into your mind. I think a lot of my creative ideas come from, from feeling bored. I, I, I go for a walk. I let my mind wander. I'm not distracted. I sit in that kind of uncomfortable feeling, and all of a sudden, I notice something kinda shifts, and I'm, I'm kinda connected with myself and I'm listening again, and, and then maybe a creative idea kinda pops up or a solution to a problem I was thinking about or, or a-an unmet need that I didn't actually reali- realize was there the whole time, and it was just kind of, in there in the, in the, in the background kind of floating around.

Michele 29:07

Well, I love this connection to creativity, and what's coming up for me is, I just sent a message to my friend yesterday about this because I personally am in a bit of a stage of exploration and transition as an artist. And, I've been trying to just spend more time not researching on a screen, which is so quick to... And it's great, right? There's all these things at our fingertips. So I have some ideas that I wanna research around some photo projects that I wanna create. And so there is research involved. I could go to the library, which is hard sometimes with my kiddo who really struggles to leave our home. So I'm often, you know, here, a bit landlocked. And so I just try and just take a notebook and sit at the chair behind me and get some ideas out. And sometimes I just sit there because I don't really know enough about a particular topic, so I do know I need to research it, so I'll just write that down. Okay, research this thing a little bit more later, you know, either at a library or, online. But I'm just trying to sit there, and I'm not one who naturally doodle, but I'm trying to doodle or just see what happens. I might just sit there with my notebook and nothing comes out, but I am literally putting myself into that state, not necessarily of boredom, but just cleansing a little bit of I have all these thoughts, and there is sometimes it's hard to get them out, and I think that we think we need to go searching for answers versus just seeing what might trickle out of us. So it's not the same as boredom, but that is often how I'm, I'm noticing for me more how I'm, I'm connecting with my creativity. And another thing I start doing is I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I have all these books I haven't picked out in so long." I have so many art books. I went to art school. Like, I have so many art books, and I, I, I kept a lot of them. And so sometimes I just grab one of those, and I flip through the pages. I'm not reading. I'm not... I'm just flipping. I'm just being with that in the moment. And guess what? Yes, new ideas are popping up, and I'm not going to that resource to be like, "Must find new idea." You know? I'm just going there to see, I don't know, to be curious

Ryan 31:27

Yes. Yeah. And that, and that's where a lot of really great things kind of spring up from, whether that is, you know, I think for a lot of people, boredom would be in- floating around there in that process, but d- not necessarily, and it, it sounds like when you're kind of describing it, it's just something you just sort of, you know, can do, and a lot of great stuff comes from it. And, for me, though, there is that sort of initial boredom, you know, kind of wall I have to get

Michele 31:49

Ja

Ryan 31:49

kind of access that space, and, I know that can be difficult for a lot of people and, and some people not so mu- Like, again, if you're someone who's really into mindfulness and love meditation and love the sort of conversations that we're, we're having, this, this might not even be something you really consider or, or struggle with. But I would just agree kind of the, the same for me, like, if I'm You know, when I'm, when I'm teaching, I'll sometimes be doing a, a lecture prep, and I'll be thinking like, "Okay, what am I gonna talk about? How am I gonna Okay, I need to talk for an hour here and then do this activity, and depending on how the time goes." And I can get really bogged down, and then I look at my bookshelf and go like, "Okay, well, I need to read all of these books to prepare for tomorrow's lecture." And, and then I kind of have to kind of take a step back and go like, "You know what? I'm just gonna go for a walk and just let my mind wander and then see what happens." And then that to me just becomes a much more, easier, more congruent way of, of planning a lecture 'cause I'll go for a walk, and I'll kind of go like, "Oh, you forgot about this thing you could talk about," or, "This is something you're really passionate about. Haven't you thought of that yet?" And so the lecture kind of then starts to plan itself when I'm able to kind of, in a similar way that I think that you're describing, just sort of like go and just sit and see what kind of comes up. And, and, and there's that expectation too, like you're, you're saying like, you know, you, you, you'll go to like write some things down with no expectation. Maybe I write something down. Maybe I don't. But it's so Isn't it so interesting that that's where a lot of really great stuff comes

Michele 33:05

Uhum!

Ryan 33:06

when we just sort of like put aside the expectations and just go like, "All right, I'm just gonna kind of see what kind of comes to surface"? And there's usually really great stuff, which is kind of frustrating when you think about it. It's like, "Okay, why do my great ideas come up when I, when I paradoxically like am not worried about it anymore?" But when I'm really worried about an idea or trying to create something, that's when it all of a sudden becomes blocked. It's such an interesting little kind of paradox

Michele 33:29

Well, it is. And you know, it's... When I started this podcast, I wanted to ensure that it didn't feel prescriptive and that we weren't saying, "Go out and notice some..." Like, we're not adding to someone's to-do list, because I think noticing happens in so many different ways, as we said at the beginning, and it doesn't have to be like, "I am now going to go and notice something," right? But I think there's an openness that we start as we stop being so, pulled in by the distractions.

Ryan 33:59

Uhum

Michele 34:01

and actually, what was that term that you used? And I, I hadn't heard it before, to be honest. It was the, was it the distraction economy? No, there was something else. There was

Ryan 34:10

Oh, the, uh, attention economy.

Michele 34:13

economy. So I did, did look that up. Can you just share a little bit about that? For those that may not know about that

Ryan 34:21

Mm-hmm. Yeah, of course. So that's this idea that,, there's a lot of, money to be made from capturing, an audience's attention. Because if you can confirm that you've grabbed someone's attention, you can confirm that they're looking at advertising,

Michele 34:35

Oh,

Ryan 34:37

So

Michele 34:37

gross

Ryan 34:38

off of that. Yeah, so, so there's so much involved in our world that's, like, trying to grab our attention and hold it so we can look at ads, you know. Grab, our attention, watch a, a particular video, and then sort of the ads kinda come in. And, and there's a lot of money to be made there. So when we're-- when our attention is, is free-floating, when it's not grabbed by something, it becomes, unable to confirm if we're actually-- the audience is actually looking at any kind of advertising. and so there's no money to be made there. So that's why I kinda say, like, boredom

Michele 35:06

Uhum.

Ryan 35:07

like, commodified because you're just sort of allowing your attention to kinda wander. Nothing's really, really grabbing it there.

Michele 35:13

Okay, that makes so much sense. And yeah, what I- what's coming up for me is this idea of when we're so in, like, e- entrenched in that, kind of, those kind of spaces that are always trying to steal our attention, I don't feel that we... I mean, yes, we can notice things that come up, discomfort, or you're like... I know I do. The kinds of things I see online don't tend to be the happy things, 'cause those are the things I'm interested in, you know, social justice, human rights, that kind of stuff. And yes, I notice a lot of discomfort coming up, and rage, a lot of rage

Ryan 35:49

Uhum,

Michele 35:49

with that.

Ryan 35:50

Yeah

Michele 35:50

But this sense of wonderment that I always am so curious to explore, and also in a non-ableist way, because, you know, I also wanna acknowledge not everybody can get out of their house and go for a walk. You know, that's an assumption coming from an... Well, I actually live in a disabled body, and I can't actually go for long walks anymore. But, you know, so this concept of, like, when we detach from everything that's trying to take our attention, and we just sit or lie down or whatever is available to us in our bodies, that's, I think, sometimes where these little pockets of wonderment might come up

Ryan 36:30

Yeah, definitely. And, and you can't prescribe that. I really like your, your approach there, this idea of, of, of non-prescriptive,

Michele 36:36

Uhum.

Ryan 36:36

so important. Because as soon as something's prescribed, then we have that sort of paradox of like, well, now you're not being kind of mindful about it. If, if you're kind of, you know, sitting there going like, "Oh, uh, I really wanna do mindfulness. I can't wait until the mindfulness starts. I really need to get so many hours of mindfulness done," then it kind of blocks you from, from, from doing it. And, I just wanna flag something else with, the non-prescriptive approach too as it kind of pertains to, to therapy, and any kind of therapists listening, I, I really wanna kind of flag this piece. We can, we can do a lot of harm by prescribing things for exactly what you just mentioned there about everyone's ability is different, right? When we prescribe something, we're assuming a certain level of ability, often based on our own understanding of our ability, right? And so there's some real blind spots there, so we have to be very careful. And then there's another pitfall too with prescribing this sort of stuff is, a lot of the times we have too much stuff that we need to do. Our plate's already kind of full. So if I as a therapist come along and say, "You need to add this to your plate, and you need to be doing that," there's a bit of a power dynamic. People kind of go, "Okay. Well, if my therapist is saying it, then I should really be doing it. Why can't I do it? Why is this so hard for me? I guess I'm just a failure. I'm not a very good client." And it just goes in this really kind of terrible direction, when we prescribe things, right? Instead of saying like, I'm exercising a little bit more curiosity or kind of taking this kind of what you're describing, a non- non-prescriptive approach. I think that's just so important. It kind of prevents all of these different blind spots when it comes to ability. It, it prevents these ruptures, and it prevents really, you know, cl- clients, you know, not getting wrapped up in this sort of sense of failure as well. So just a really important piece I wanted to kind of flag as, as you were talking about

Michele 38:16

Yeah, thanks. I, I think I am someone who doesn't like rules. And I don't like rules, nor does my kid. I don't know where he gets it from. It's hard because we're always wanting someone to give us an answer, especially when there's discomfort, you know? And this is w- again, where because of some of the limitations, and constraints that came up for me in my life, this is how I started to realize, like, I am t- I am actually taking in more little micro-joys or glimmers, as people say, in my own environment by totally turning off all of the other things and just being there. Even hanging out with my dog, you know, and just watching her little expressions. And it's not usually for long, but I, I, I've realized and I've noticed how that's helped me regulate myself a lot better than even three years ago, where I... it was not good, you know? There was... My, my son experiences extreme mental health challenges,, not anything any parent ever thought that they would have to go through. And so, that doesn't make it easy for you as the adult trying to co-regulate, right? And so, and, and h- the other thing is the prescriptive pieces, like people are like, "You need self-care. You need this. What are you doing for yourself?" I'm like, "I can't actually leave my house." I can't actually... There's affordability issues in that. There's all these things. So all I could honestly do was start to intentionally check out of all the things that wanted my attention and check into, I don't know, whatever is around me

Ryan 39:57

Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, w- i- i- it, it's, it's, it's, it's exactly kinda what you're mentioning there. I really kinda resonate with a lot of, a lot of things that you're saying. And, you know, a- also this sorta stuff, this, this, things that we wanna do, things we wanna notice are, are very unique to, to us as well. Like, you're kinda saying like, oh, like, looking at spiders in my garden is, is something, or, or, or looking at my dog and then, and then that creates those moments of joy that are really important for you. I can't pres- no- no one can prescribe that to you.

Michele 40:23

Uhum!

Ryan 40:24

it's something that you, you kinda found on your own. No one came along and said, "Hey, you know, look at spiders for 10 minutes a day and you'll feel better," right? You know? So,

Michele 40:34

It's true.

Ryan 40:35

too.

Michele 40:36

Yeah

Ryan 40:36

But then there's also the thing where, like, if, if I, if, like, I'm someone, if, if someone told me to do something, no, I'm really not gonna do it. Like, if someone told me, "Go look at spiders for 10 minutes," I'm definitely not g- I wasn't gonna do it before, and now I'm really not gonna do it, so yeah.

Michele 40:50

Yeah, I, I know. I, I just stumbled upon it

Ryan 40:54

Uhum.

Michele 40:55

And

Ryan 40:55

great,

Michele 40:56

I think that's one of the things is like making space for that, for curiosity.

Ryan 41:04

Uhum

Michele 41:06

don't know. I don't know what it is, but being open to I, I think of this concept of receiving. You know? We- it's really hard for us to receive. Receive a gift, to receive joy, pleasure. Like, I, I think we're... It's receiving is a weird

Ryan 41:25

Hum.

Michele 41:26

and so I think it's, like, this openness to receive I, I don't know what, 'cause there's nothing I'm not... I didn't think about the spiders in advance, right? But just this openness of, like, being receptive

Ryan 41:39

Yeah. I mean, it, it's kinda like what I was saying at the, at the beginning of our talk about receiving gratitude and how, like, for me, that's, like, something I have to, like, really kind of, like, do. It just doesn't come naturally, this receiving kinda process., And it makes my mind kinda think, "Well, why is that so difficult?" And the first thing that kinda pops up for me is, well, when you're, when you're open to receiving, you're open to receiving everything, you know, not just necessarily the good things, but maybe even some things that are not so great or things that you were afraid of or maybe hoping, not to connect with or afraid what would happen if you did connect with them. So if you're in a, in a For example, if you're in, in a body that at this, at this point in time just doesn't feel safe, maybe there is, a, a, a, a history of trauma, or you're in a particular point in your journey with trauma, sometimes it just, it doesn't feel safe to be in your body to be in that open kind of receiving, a way 'cause that means opening up to all this other stuff, that might kinda come up, whatever might be kind of underneath the surface, and really be, be exposed to that. So I think there's kind of like a protective thing in there about kinda not receiving and why it's so difficult depending on what kinda comes up.

Michele 42:44

This is so, this is such an- another interesting thing to consider because often... Well, I'm just thinking about what came up for me now is all of the conversations around women's bodies and the Cornell Seven, and, a lot of the times when things happen to someone's bodies, it's without consent, right?

Ryan 43:03

Uhum

Michele 43:05

And what I'm saying is, like, I'm- I'm consenting to myself. Like, I'm saying, "I actually am going to step away from here 'cause I just want to... I, I want to be bored. I want to be alone. I want quiet." So this concept of res- yeah, it's such an interesting topic. That's such an interesting...

Ryan 43:27

Hum,

Michele 43:28

Because yeah, I think a lot of the times our bodies experience things that are out of our control and without our consent

Ryan 43:37

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think, I think for some people, you know, maybe the, the noticing, is helpful to turn it, turn it down. To, to, to, to notice less for, for, you know, a particular period of time or, or that can also be a, a strategy that, that someone might utilize, you know, as well, I think it, it, it blocks you from a lot of things for sure when you, when you do that. So it is important to, when you, when you, say, do something like turning down how much you're noticing, to understand that that's, that's maybe for you at this moment, a strategy that's helpful, but something you wanna reconnect with later, so being able to kinda turn it back up, open yourself up to receive when it, when it does feel appropriate. Or, or kind of maybe opening yourself up, when it, when it doesn't feel too safe, but working with someone and getting that support to reestablish that sense of safety. So I think a lot of times people might have a fear of, of receiving and opening up for what might come up, and I think a lot of the times when you do open yourself up like that, you're kinda surprised that thing you were afraid of didn't really happen. You know? There's a, there's a fear that you might receive something, that is, that is negative or, something that you're struggling with. And so this is why I think sometimes therapy's really interesting because you can do that with, with support. You can open yourself up and receive in the therapeutic relationship, and there's a therapist kinda going, "See? The world didn't come to an end. Nothing, you know, n- nothing collapsed. You're still okay. You're still safe even though you opened yourself up, either to me here in this space or to kinda, the world in general. I'm here to support you with that and, and look at this. When you did open up, nothing terrible happened. You're actually still okay. You're still yourself. You're still your same person that you were a second ago. Nothing really terrible happened." But with trauma it feels as if something terrible will happen if I do receive, you know? And, and then that sometimes needs to be, sometimes, not all the time, but you know, worked through, through in a, in a therapy session., To have someone there support you and to let you know that, when you do open yourself up, everything will be okay again.

Michele 45:33

I feel like, what you were just saying is how I speak to my son a lot.

Ryan 45:37

Oh

Michele 45:37

you tried the thing,

Ryan 45:39

Uh-huh.

Michele 45:40

it was hard. I could see it was really fucking hard for you. And guess what? You did it.

Ryan 45:48

Uhum

Michele 45:49

need to go and zone out for a bit, so go do that

Ryan 45:53

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michele 45:56

Ja.

Ryan 45:56

That sounds a lot like how I end some therapy sessions. you did a lot of really great work today, and now it's time to, you know, take care of yourself and, and, and not forget that piece, that this, this is work, this whole, you know, a step out into a world that might feel unsafe or opening yourself up." You know, it's a very vulnerable space and, and we're not We don't give ourselves credit when we, when we spend time in a vulnerable space, how difficult that can be. So being able to do that sort of like, "Okay, I took one step forward. Now I'm gonna retreat for a little bit and take care of myself," and then, and then maybe tomorrow kind of two steps out. Yeah

Michele 46:28

Well, yeah, and I think that's when you slowly start to notice new things, right? When you take those little steps? And like you said, sometimes those things aren't comfortable, and sometimes it's like, "Oh, hmm, who knew? Spiders."

Ryan 46:43

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, you discover that. Yeah, totally. Yeah

Michele 46:46

what's one thing that you hope that you never stop noticing?

Ryan 46:52

Oh, man. Um, really hope I don't stop noticing... Hmm, let's see I really hope I don't stop noticing, the wonderful people around me. 'Cause that's something that I can forget when I'm, when I'm very stressed or, you know, I got a lot of my stuff coming up, I wanna isolate. The world doesn't kind of feel safe. I wanna kind of pull back. But I wanna c-continue to, to notice that there, there's people around me, and they're really wonderful, and I've got lots of support and got a lot to be grateful for. So continuing to notice the people that, that are in my life, 'cause for some reason, I don't know what it is, and, and maybe other people are the same way, as soon as something's going on with me that goes offline, I just think, "Well, I've got this problem and I'm completely alone with it, and I'd better figure it out," instead of, "Oh, actually, I've got all these people that really care about me, and I care about them. Maybe I should share my problem with them." So yeah, really just noticing that there's, there's still people around me. I think that's a really great thing I wanna keep, keep in mind.

Michele 47:54

I love that and I can relate, 'cause life can be isolating sometimes, and then you go, "Actually There's people out there that care, and it- that's such an important thing to never stop noticing. I love that so much.

Ryan 48:11

Uhum

Michele 48:13

ask you and offer you the space to do a shameless plug right now. I know you just opened up your practice, so why don't you tell us a little bit more about that

Ryan 48:21

Yeah, of course. Thank you for the, for the opportunity as well to be here and talk about these things and, be able to do a little bit of a shameless plug. I won't do too much of a plug. You know, it-- I, I think my plug is basically gonna be, you know, if, if you really found this episode interesting and some of the things that I'm talking about or some of the things on this podcast kind of interesting and wanna continue these conversations, with a mental health professional, we've got this wonderful, clinic that's just opened up, Layers Counseling Wellness, where we have a whole roster of counselors that are really interested in exploring all the topics we kinda talked about today and more. I've got some wonderful counselors that I've just hired. They're fantastic. They're really talented. Uh, I'm in a really interesting and lucky privileged position where I can kind of pick and choose who's gonna be on the roster 'cause I'm

Michele 49:06

Yeah, I was like, "'Cause you're teaching," right?

Ryan 49:08

Yes.

Michele 49:09

like,

Ryan 49:09

yeah. S- I've poached the sort of the best of the best. So yeah, if you're looking for just a little bit of extra support, with your mental health, Layers Counseling Wellness, you can find us online and at Instagram.

Michele 49:22

and I, I did wanna quickly ask, if you don't mind, because you were s- you said here in your bio about the psychedelic integration. Is that something that you do in your practice at Layers? Like working with people

Ryan 49:35

it's Yeah, it's something I wanna be It is something that I, that I do, like, when I'm working with a, a client. If, if the psychedelic stuff comes up, I am trained to, to navigate that conversation about integration. but actually, in a few weeks I've I, I haven't posted it yet, but I wanna actually start running, a sharing circle for psychedelic integration. So that's something that's gonna be live on the website very soon and on social media. I wanna kinda cr- I, I'm gonna be creating a space where a lot of us can kinda come together and, and share our experience with psychedelics because that's part of the integration as well, finding a sharing circle, finding a community, where you can kinda continue to integrate some of these ideas and, and, and, and be heard and listen to other people as well.

Michele 50:16

I've seen so many, criticisms around psychedelics and people going, you know, wherever and then having this whatever ayahuasca experience and then coming back and there's like no integration and, and you know, good for... Uh, yay, I'm glad that you went and had that, but there's, there's... Integration's such an important part of, you know, you've op- you've op- you've had this opening and you're raw and then what? So I love that. And are you also offering in your clinic like supported psychedelic treatments? Because

Ryan 50:48

Uh, yeah

Michele 50:49

know that's a thing, like as well. I've looked into it myself.

Ryan 50:55

yeah.

Michele 50:55

Although I don't love the idea of being in a therapy room, I have to say, and doing s- like, I'd rather be like in nature or something like that. But yes, I know that that's becoming more of a thing where people will go and work with a therapist and have like a supported psychedelic experience.

Ryan 51:12

Yeah, that's something that, you know, a-a-again, right now I mentioned the, the, the ketamine therapy 'cause right now that's the one that is, that is legal, that I am able to do that with, people is, and I, I contract my services, to a particular clinic, called Field Trip, where I do ketamine-assisted therapy. So I'm the therapist in the room that sits with you as you go through the experience. And then of course, I'm, I'm also trained as well to support people who are journeying with, uh, psilocybin as well. So that's something I'm very passionate and very interested and have done some training and, and able to support people, should they wanna choose that particular, healing modality.

Michele 51:47

Okay. I love that. More on that to come, folks. I feel like that's another episode to talk specifically about that. Thank you so much, Ryan, for being here. I feel like we, our conversation was so fascinating exploring this topic of boredom and, safety and all of the things and how it just integrates back into this idea of how are we noticing things and how are we detaching as well from this attention-seeking economy

Ryan 52:18

It is a little bit of a battle, but it's, it's such a wonderful jumping off point, this noticing piece. I think it's really great. So I really appreciate you having me on, on the podcast, and being able to talk about some of these things. I had a fantastic time talking about these, these, these are, these topics that I think are so important, and I feel like we could continue this conversation and go in a bunch of different directions. So always appreciate, having a space to do this, so thank you

Michele 52:40

Thank you so much, and thanks for everyone who is listening here with us today. I'll make sure that all of Ryan's information is in the show notes so that you know how to connect with Ryan. Check out his therapy practice and all the other amazing practitioners there as well. And until next time, I hope that you notice something that just sparks a little bit of wonder in your life.

53:04

What a wonderful conversation we had today with Ryan. I wanna thank him so much for being my guest today on Noticing the Ordinary. Wanna thank you all for tuning into our conversation, and I hope that you got something out of it. Perhaps, maybe even a little curiosity about embracing boredom. Thanks so much for listening to Noticing the Ordinary. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, or hey, even consider sending it to a friend. This has been a Mateus Studios production by yours truly, Michele Mateus. And until next time, I hope that something ordinary crosses your path soon...